During the St Kilda/ Fremantle game I stated that Milne would go down as one of the best small forwards in history, to which I recieved numerous comments along the lines of "wooly what are you smoking?!"
So to those who think I've lost it, please name any true small forward* that had (or will have) a better career than Milne. The only player that comes close is Phillip Matera (West Coast, 179 games, 389 goals), however Milne beats him out due to his longevity.
*I should clarify that I would classify a true small forward as someone under 6 ft (<183cm) and who essentially played their entire career in the forwardline (this would rule out goalkicking midfielders such as Kevin Bartlett, Leigh Matthews, etc).
Stevie J and Chappy small forwards?
Lol. No.
Milne has never even made an All Australian team, he can't be considered one of the greats. Never won a best and fairest. Not a leader of his club. Goes missing in big games.
And the best small forwards are eventually moved to the midfield! Milne doesn't have that ability.
Quote from: RyanV22 on June 13, 2010, 08:35:49 PM
Stevie J and Chappy small forwards?
Stevie J is 190cm
Chappy is also too tall, but he is more of a midfielder than forward.
Quote from: ossie85 on June 13, 2010, 08:39:31 PM
Lol. No.
Milne has never even made an All Australian team, he can't be considered one of the greats. Never won a best and fairest. Not a leader of his club. Goes missing in big games.
And the best small forwards are eventually moved to the midfield! Milne doesn't have that ability.
All Australian Teams do not pick players based on position (see Dane Swan '09 - named as a forward, Lake '09 - named in the back pocket, and numerous others) so that argument is flawed.
Too say that the best small forwards are eventually moved to the midfield is to miss the point of my post: I said players who play virtually their entire career as a small forward (i.e. Jeff Farmer, Phillip Matera, Adam Schnieder, etc). By the way, which best small forwards have been moved into the midfield?
Small forwards are picked in the All Aus team all the time - Davis, Medhurst, Brad Johnson, Matera, Nathan Brown, Jeff Farmer.....
Brad Johnson is 4 cm taller than Milne, in my mind he IS a small forward that is just very good at playing tall!
And small forwards turning into midfielders? How about Ben Cousins and Gary Ablett jnr off the top of my head?
Quote from: ossie85 on June 14, 2010, 08:26:38 AM
Small forwards are picked in the All Aus team all the time - Davis, Medhurst, Brad Johnson, Matera, Nathan Brown, Jeff Farmer.....
Brad Johnson is 4 cm taller than Milne, in my mind he IS a small forward that is just very good at playing tall!
And small forwards turning into midfielders? How about Ben Cousins and Gary Ablett jnr off the top of my head?
Davis, Medhurst, Matera, Farmer have only been named once in All Australian teams. If you re-read my original post you'll see that I said when Milne
retires he will go down as one of the best small forwards, meaning he still has a chance to make an All Australian Team. Besides All Australian Teams reward a player based on performance over one year. I mean sure Medhurst and Davis may be All Australians but where are they now? Both struggling with consistency and form. Only Matera and Farmer (and Johnson) compare to Milne in terms of consistency and logevity over their careers. Here are some facts and figures for you:
Davis*: 194 Games, 250 Goals (1.3 goals per game)
Medhurst*: 166 Games, 274 Goals (1.6 goals per game)
Farmer: 249 Games, 483 Goals (1.9 goals per game)
Matera: 179 Games, 389 Goals (2.2 goals per game)
Johnson*: 352 Games, 549 Goals (1.6 goals per game)
Milne*: 200 Games, 408 Goals (2.0 goals per game)
*Still playingMilne is better than Medhurst and Davis due to goals per game; he will most likely beat out Matera for longevity (unfortunate that Matera's career was cut short by injury); and he will most likely finish his career with more games and goals then Farmer. Johnson is the only player on that list that has (and most likely will have) a better career than Milne.
So even if Milne does not make an All Australian Team this does not change the fact that he will have had one of the best careers of any small forward.
As for Ben Cousins and Gary Ablett Jr, even in their early playing days when they played forward they were still rotating through the midfield. Rather then drag this arguement out I'll ask a simple question: will either be remembered as a small forward? No. Will Milne? Yes. Either way, like I said earlier this post is not about who the best foward-turned-midfielder is, but the best small forward who played virtually their entire career as a small forward.
Apologies Wooly, I thought these threads were for discussion! But if you keep saying 'read my original post' then clearly all you want to do is state your own opinion. I thought you were asking a question!
Quote from: ossie85 on June 14, 2010, 04:54:46 PM
Apologies Wooly, I thought these threads were for discussion! But if you keep saying 'read my original post' then clearly all you want to do is state your own opinion. I thought you were asking a question!
lol of course it's for discussion, I keep saying read my original post because you keep posting comments that stray from the criteria! For example:
QuoteAnd the best small forwards are eventually moved to the midfield!
My reply:
QuoteToo say that the best small forwards are eventually moved to the midfield is to miss the point of my post: I said players who play virtually their entire career as a small forward (i.e. Jeff Farmer, Phillip Matera, Adam Schnieder, etc).
It says it clearly in the ORIGINAL POST.
I'll put the question in bold so it's clear to you:
Name a player under 6ft (<183cm) who essentially played (or plays) their entire career as a small forward that had (or will have) a better career than Milne?Your answer:
QuoteSmall forwards are picked in the All Aus team all the time - Davis, Medhurst, Brad Johnson, Matera, Nathan Brown, Jeff Farmer.....
Brad Johnson is 4 cm taller than Milne, in my mind he IS a small forward that is just very good at playing tall!
My reply:
QuoteDavis, Medhurst, Matera, Farmer have only been named once in All Australian teams. If you re-read my original post you'll see that I said when Milne retires he will go down as one of the best small forwards, meaning he still has a chance to make an All Australian Team. Besides All Australian Teams reward a player based on performance over one year. I mean sure Medhurst and Davis may be All Australians but where are they now? Both struggling with consistency and form. Only Matera and Farmer (and Johnson) compare to Milne in terms of consistency and logevity over their careers.
Milne is better than Medhurst and Davis due to goals per game; he will most likely beat out Matera for longevity (unfortunate that Matera's career was cut short by injury); and he will most likely finish his career with more games and goals then Farmer. Johnson is the only player on that list that has (and most likely will have) a better career than Milne.
How is this not a discussion?! You made a comment I replied with evidence supporting my argument and acknowledged your arguments... I even stated that you were probably right in saying Johnson is a better small forward than Milne (although the case could be argued that he's not a true small forward, however he meets the criteria I set out so I don't have much choice but to agree with you)!!!
So please tell me again how this is not a discussion?!
Quote from: ossie85 on June 13, 2010, 08:39:31 PM
Not a leader of his club. Goes missing in big games.
I agree with ossie. Schnieder as well
Quote from: wooly on June 14, 2010, 05:49:44 PM
I'll put the question in bold so it's clear to you: Name a player under 6ft (>182cm) who essentially played (or plays) their entire career as a small forward that had (or will have) a better career than Milne?
Geez, Wooly! No need to come out so strong! I apologise if I've upset you!
Six foot is 183cm btw ;), but I've gotta say Peter Daicos. Though, at 184cm, he wouldn't be included in your criteria! Also, Jeff Farmer. And you seem to be punishing Brad Johnson because he is so good at playing like a tall forward you exclude him from comparison? So yes, Milne is one of the greatest small forwards if you exclude all the players too good to play in that position for their careers! Seems an odd thing to be saying. Would be like excluding Leigh Matthews from being included as a great midfielder cos he played in the forward line, or Gary Ablett senior as a great forward because he played in the midfield!
My point is that you're phrasing the question with so many criteria that you're excluding the vast majority of players!
Is Milne a proven match winner? I don't see much evidence of that. Why else would Grant Thomas want to drop him the game after he scored 11 goals for the following final? A final which he failed in. Milne has only ONE skill - and that's score sneaky goals. Very one dimensional. I always use a SC scores as a measure of influence on a game (except for key backmen) and he has never averaged more than 80 in a year.
I'll put it to you this way - if you were selecting an all star team to play for your life - would you even consider picking Stephen Milne? I no I certainly wouldn't.
QuoteGeez, Wooly! No need to come out so strong! I apologise if I've upset you!
lol no you haven't upset me, just annoyed me when you accused me of not "discussing" the topic.
QuoteSix foot is 183cm btw ;)
I must admit I pulled 182 off the top of my head so I looked up 6ft and technically it is 182.88 cm, which is obviously closer to 183 than 182 so you got me there!
Quotebut I've gotta say Peter Daicos. Though, at 184cm, he wouldn't be included in your criteria! Also, Jeff Farmer. And you seem to be punishing Brad Johnson because he is so good at playing like a tall forward you exclude him from comparison? So yes, Milne is one of the greatest small forwards if you exclude all the players too good to play in that position for their careers! Seems an odd thing to be saying. Would be like excluding Leigh Matthews from being included as a great midfielder cos he played in the forward line, or Gary Ablett senior as a great forward because he played in the midfield!
My point is that you're phrasing the question with so many criteria that you're excluding the vast majority of players!
I had two criteria: under 6ft and played entire career as a small forward (hardly seems likely "so many criteria").
I asked you to answer the question based on the criteria you were given (despite how odd the question may seem to you). (besides if you thought it was a poor question why didn't you say that originally?).
Peter Daicos is without doubt one of the best forwards in the history of the game but like you said he didn't meet the criteria. I already explained why I think Milne will have a better career than Jeff Farmer. And as for Brad Johnson:
QuoteAnd you seem to be punishing Brad Johnson because he is so good at playing like a tall forward you exclude him from comparison?
Mate, how about you learn to read before you comment! It says clearly in my earlier post:
QuoteJohnson is the only player on that list that has (and most likely will have) a better career than Milne.
and:
QuoteI even stated that you were probably right in saying Johnson is a better small forward than Milne (although the case could be argued that he's not a true small forward, however he meets the criteria I set out so I don't have much choice but to agree with you)!!!
Not once did I "punish" Johnson or say that Milne was better. This is why I keep asking you to go back and read my posts! lol
QuoteIs Milne a proven match winner? I don't see much evidence of that. Why else would Grant Thomas want to drop him the game after he scored 11 goals for the following final? A final which he failed in. Milne has only ONE skill - and that's score sneaky goals. Very one dimensional. I always use a SC scores as a measure of influence on a game (except for key backmen) and he has never averaged more than 80 in a year.
I'll put it to you this way - if you were selecting an all star team to play for your life - would you even consider picking Stephen Milne? I no I certainly wouldn't.
Answer to your last question: No. lol
You seem to have an issue with the question, which is fine because it is an odd question, but I asked you for the answer to
that question. If I had said:
"pick any player in history to play in the forward pocket or as a small forward?" Milne wouldn't even come into consideration. But I didn't ask that question. I don't have any issue with you, but in future I would suggest that you read the entire post (thoroughly) before passing comment.
yer ossie, read the frign posts thoroughly will ya.....Geeeez ;D
What was the question?
;D
What a Debate!!!!
I'll get to it sometime tommorrow ;D.
Read first couple of posts and bits and pieces here and there. So much writing :o.
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 15, 2010, 05:30:56 PM
What a Debate!!!!
I'll get to it sometime tommorrow ;D.
Read first couple of posts and bits and pieces here and there. So much writing :o.
Haha I do apologise for that; just thought the best way to explain it to ossie was to breakdown each point, as he didn't seem to understand what I was asking/saying... which is not surprising since he is a collingwood supporter :P
Well, SO'S YOUR FACE! lol
Please don't misconstrue my disagreeing with you as not understanding! I understood, and moved on.....
Quote from: ossie85 on June 15, 2010, 06:20:44 PM
Well, SO'S YOUR FACE! lol
Please don't misconstrue my disagreeing with you as not understanding! I understood, and moved on.....
Well... YOUR MUM! lol
Sorry Wooly, but I have to agree with ossie.
The Best Small Forwards are to good for their roles as Small Forwards, eg Brad Johnson.
Quote from: Master Q on June 15, 2010, 06:41:37 PM
The Best Small Forwards are to good for their roles as Small Forwards, eg Brad Johnson.
I agree and I'm not arguing that point, just asking the question: Name a player under 6ft (<183cm) who essentially played (or plays) their entire career as a small forward that had (or will have) a better career than Milne?
And as you would have seen I agreed with ossie that Brad Johnson is better. Is there anyone else?
Cyril Rioli?
Quote from: bunyip on June 15, 2010, 10:10:46 PM
Cyril Rioli?
Could definitely end up having a much better career than Milne, but too early to tell. At his current pace (55 games, 61 goals; 1.1 goals per match) he won't.
Quote from: bunyip on June 14, 2010, 06:05:31 PM
Quote from: ossie85 on June 13, 2010, 08:39:31 PM
Not a leader of his club. Goes missing in big games.
I agree with ossie. Schnieder as well
Was reading back through the earlier posts (see ossie! :P) and must have missed this whilst ossie and I were having our "intense" discussion lol.
I would tend to agree with you (and ossie) on these points, and it is extremely difficult for me to disput them however I will make an attempt.
First: Not a leader of his club. I would certainly agree that for the better part of his career Milne has not been seen as a leader of his club. However under Ross Lyon I think he has developed leadership (along with numerous other things like consistency, but I'll stick with leadership). Of course the only way you, ossie or I could tell if Milne is/ is not a leader of his club is if we were actually at the club for an extended period of time to observe Milne's leaderhsip. The best thing we have to go off is public comments made by his coach, Ross Lyon:
QuoteIt’s a goal within the team parameters of leading, crumbing and pressuring. He’s a real team player and a real leader of the forward line
QuoteIt is a special effort to play 200 games. For a small forward it is really tough, you try and identify the great ones like (Peter) Daicos, Brett Allison, (Darren) Bewick and (Phil) Matera. He certainly sits up around there somewhere
QuoteWe value him internally, he’s got great character
QuoteHe has stood up under real pressure. You can’t beat your critics, you can’t answer your critics, all you can do is persist and have some longevity in your career and keep producing, that is the ultimate revenge
Source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/96015/default.aspx
Now before you say "he was just saying that to defend Milne" think about the position Lyon is in: His comments will be heard by everyone including Milne's teammates (and the players he mentioned). He therefore is unlikely to state something that is untrue and that his players will disagree with. Comments like the one's above are not made lightly.
Second: Goes missing in big games. I tend to agree with this and given I have exams at the moment I have neither the time or patience to look up Milnes record in big games (and therefore prove whether this comment is legitimate or not). Based on the game on the weekend it appeared he has also overcome this shortfall, although it is only one game so it hardly proves that.
Interesting side note: as I searched for Lyon's exact quote in Google I also found this quote from Leigh Matthews:
QuoteAveraging two goals a game as a permanent small forward is a very good return
Some more quotes from the same article:
QuoteHis best and worst are often a long way apart, but he plays a difficult position extremely well.
Quotegetting nine inside-50 marks - now that is something right out of the box, which is very much a one-off
Source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/95798/default.aspx
P.S. Sorry for the extra reading HP ;D
Quote from: Master Q on June 15, 2010, 06:37:18 PM
Sorry Wooly, but I have to agree with ossie.
No need to be sorry Q, this topic is extremely debateable and I have no issues with people disagreeing with me; in fact I welcome comment's like ossies'. A discussion like this one is always good fun.
Quote from: wooly on June 15, 2010, 10:15:59 PM
Quote from: bunyip on June 15, 2010, 10:10:46 PM
Cyril Rioli?
Could definitely end up having a much better career than Milne, but too early to tell. At his current pace (55 games, 61 goals; 1.1 goals per match) he won't.
What!?
Quote from: Master Q on June 16, 2010, 08:57:16 PM
Quote from: wooly on June 15, 2010, 10:15:59 PM
Quote from: bunyip on June 15, 2010, 10:10:46 PM
Cyril Rioli?
Could definitely end up having a much better career than Milne, but too early to tell. At his current pace (55 games, 61 goals; 1.1 goals per match) he won't.
What!?
...?
You claim that at his current goal scoring pace of 1.1 Per Game he won't be better then Milne? Since when is a Pocket judged on for how many goals they kick? Firstly, Rioli runs down players, adds defensive pressure takes marks, goes on runs. Were as for Milne, kicks 3-4 goals a game, most of them anyone could kick.
At Rioli's rate, he will overtake Milne next year.
Thats true, there's other aspects of the game that are considered just as important as kicking goals, the 1 per centers.
Having said that, Milney appears to have assumed a leadership roll particularly since Riewolts injury
Quote from: Master Q on June 17, 2010, 06:24:30 PM
You claim that at his current goal scoring pace of 1.1 Per Game he won't be better then Milne? Since when is a Pocket judged on for how many goals they kick? Firstly, Rioli runs down players, adds defensive pressure takes marks, goes on runs. Were as for Milne, kicks 3-4 goals a game, most of them anyone could kick.
At Rioli's rate, he will overtake Milne next year.
My reply was obviously a very simplistic one, and my main point is that it is too early to tell whether Rioli will have a better career than Milne, however, the no.1 priority of any small forward is to kick goals (hence my simplistic answer).
While I agree that there are other factors that are important (chasing, tackling, leadership, etc), they all come second to kicking goals. Football (like all sports) is about winning; ultimately goals win games. Plus it is not as though Milne does not do those things (but I agree not to the same extent as Rioli).
Basically my point is that it is too early to tell if Rioli will have a better career than Milne.
Quote from: Master Q on June 17, 2010, 06:24:30 PM
At Rioli's rate, he will overtake Milne next year.
I would like to see you back up this comment.
Alot of support for Milne from a Demons supporter ;D.
Milne is a great goal sneak and crumber. Probably one of the best ever in that category if thats what you want from a small forward. But his overall game is lacking somewhat. Still considered a great small forward, but many great all rounded small fowards that do more than just kick goals. Maybe not as much, but tackles and defensive pressure does make up for that.
Quote from: wooly on June 17, 2010, 09:01:09 PM
While I agree that there are other factors that are important (chasing, tackling, leadership, etc), they all come second to kicking goals.
[/quote]
I don't agree. I know there are forwards (may not be small) that are there to apply defensive pressure or curb the influence of running backs, and kicking the odd goal is a bonus.
Quote from: bunyip on June 17, 2010, 11:18:59 PM
Quote from: wooly on June 17, 2010, 09:01:09 PM
While I agree that there are other factors that are important (chasing, tackling, leadership, etc), they all come second to kicking goals.
I don't agree. I know there are forwards (may not be small) that are there to apply defensive pressure or curb the influence of running backs, and kicking the odd goal is a bonus.
I'll break down why I think goals is the most important role of the small forward (and why they are the best measure of their success/failure). The goal of football is to win, and you win by outscoring the opposition, therefore the two most important things in football are: 1) Scoring (goals) 2) stopping the opposition from scoring. Each member (position) in the team plays a role: Backs stop the opposition from scoring (duh!), midfielders work both ways (duh!) and forwards score (duh!). Now you mentioned there are forwards whose roles are to prevent the other team scoring, by stopping the opposition generating run off half back - which is where most goals are set-up from. While I agree this is important, it is no good stopping a team from scoring if you can't score yourself, hence why I say goals are the most important measure of a small forwards success (and why a goal scoring small forward is more important than a defensive tagging small forward).
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 17, 2010, 09:07:21 PM
Alot of support for Milne from a Demons supporter ;D.
Milne is a great goal sneak and crumber. Probably one of the best ever in that category if thats what you want from a small forward. But his overall game is lacking somewhat. Still considered a great small forward, but many great all rounded small fowards that do more than just kick goals. Maybe not as much, but tackles and defensive pressure does make up for that.
Haha, I actually hate Milne, but I still respect his ability and think he should get acknowledged for it.
You sum it up pretty well: he plays the "textbook" small forward role well (crumbing and sneaky goals) which is what I'd want from my small forward (and probably should have added it to the criteria - but then it would probably be a bit excessive and specific). As Leigh Matthews said the small forward position is extremely difficult to play and I believe that Milne, due to his longevity (200+ games) and production (400+ goals), has played the position exceptionally well (and should therefore be recognised for it).
I have explained in the post above why I consider goals a priority for small forwards (over other things) and while I agree his game overall is lacking somewhat, I challenge you to find a small forward that meets (or is likely to meet) his production and longevity, whilst still excelling at the other aspects of the game (leadership; 1 per centers - smothers, chasing tackling; etc).
Quote from: wooly on June 18, 2010, 01:05:31 AM
Quote from: bunyip on June 17, 2010, 11:18:59 PM
Quote from: wooly on June 17, 2010, 09:01:09 PM
While I agree that there are other factors that are important (chasing, tackling, leadership, etc), they all come second to kicking goals.
I don't agree. I know there are forwards (may not be small) that are there to apply defensive pressure or curb the influence of running backs, and kicking the odd goal is a bonus.
I'll break down why I think goals is the most important role of the small forward (and why they are the best measure of their success/failure). The goal of football is to win, and you win by outscoring the opposition, therefore the two most important things in football are: 1) Scoring (goals) 2) stopping the opposition from scoring. Each member (position) in the team plays a role: Backs stop the opposition from scoring (duh!), midfielders work both ways (duh!) and forwards score (duh!). Now you mentioned there are forwards whose roles are to prevent the other team scoring, by stopping the opposition generating run off half back - which is where most goals are set-up from. While I agree this is important, it is no good stopping a team from scoring if you can't score yourself, hence why I say goals are the most important measure of a small forwards success (and why a goal scoring small forward is more important than a defensive tagging small forward).
Yes but who says Hawthorn don't score throught Rioli's plays? I have seen many different situations were Rioli lays it off to Franklin/Roughead who slot it through!
So What If He Doesn't Score, They Still Do When He Touches It.
Will see if I can come up with any during the weekend :).
Quote from: Master Q on June 18, 2010, 12:58:33 PM
Quote from: wooly on June 18, 2010, 01:05:31 AM
Quote from: bunyip on June 17, 2010, 11:18:59 PM
Quote from: wooly on June 17, 2010, 09:01:09 PM
While I agree that there are other factors that are important (chasing, tackling, leadership, etc), they all come second to kicking goals.
I don't agree. I know there are forwards (may not be small) that are there to apply defensive pressure or curb the influence of running backs, and kicking the odd goal is a bonus.
I'll break down why I think goals is the most important role of the small forward (and why they are the best measure of their success/failure). The goal of football is to win, and you win by outscoring the opposition, therefore the two most important things in football are: 1) Scoring (goals) 2) stopping the opposition from scoring. Each member (position) in the team plays a role: Backs stop the opposition from scoring (duh!), midfielders work both ways (duh!) and forwards score (duh!). Now you mentioned there are forwards whose roles are to prevent the other team scoring, by stopping the opposition generating run off half back - which is where most goals are set-up from. While I agree this is important, it is no good stopping a team from scoring if you can't score yourself, hence why I say goals are the most important measure of a small forwards success (and why a goal scoring small forward is more important than a defensive tagging small forward).
Yes but who says Hawthorn don't score throught Rioli's plays? I have seen many different situations were Rioli lays it off to Franklin/Roughead who slot it through!
So What If He Doesn't Score, They Still Do When He Touches It.
I have also seen many situations in which Milne has laid it off too Reiwoldt/ Kosi and they have put it through.
If Rioli plays 200+ games, lifts his average goals per game to ~1.5 and maintains his tackling pressure (all very achievable goals) than there is no doubt he will have had a better career than Milne; my point still remains that it is too early to tell.
So small forwards better than Milne (based on the criteria): Brad Johnson and possibly Cyril Rioli.
On a completely unrelated note:
I'VE FINISHED EXAMS!!!
;D
Finally wooly!!! :D
Finished mine last week ;D.
wooly, may I ask non-stat wise, do you really think Milne is one of the best small forwards?
Quote from: Master Q on June 19, 2010, 08:26:51 AM
wooly, may I ask non-stat wise, do you really think Milne is one of the best small forwards?
For what I consider the role of a small forward to be (crumbing and goal kicking) yes. Would I pick him in the team of the century or team of the decade? God no.
I've had a look at his stats so far this year and to be honest there is nothing startling. If he is such a champion you would think he's be the top 10 for SOMETHING
Quote from: bunyip on June 19, 2010, 02:23:17 PM
I've had a look at his stats so far this year and to be honest there is nothing startling. If he is such a champion you would think he's be the top 10 for SOMETHING
Yeah but we're not talking about a single year, we are talking about a playing career.
Stumbled across an article from Herald Sun writer Jon Anderson, which is virtually the same discussion we are having here:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/whos-the-best-small-forward/story-e6frf9jf-1225855799088
For those who can't be bothered reading it, he ranks Milne fourth all time behind, Brad Johnson, Jeff Farmer and Phil Matera.
Quote from: bunyip on June 19, 2010, 02:23:17 PM
I've had a look at his stats so far this year and to be honest there is nothing startling. If he is such a champion you would think he's be the top 10 for SOMETHING
wooly have an answer this? Surely with Roo gone his stats should much higher.
Quote from: Master Q on June 19, 2010, 03:24:06 PM
Quote from: bunyip on June 19, 2010, 02:23:17 PM
I've had a look at his stats so far this year and to be honest there is nothing startling. If he is such a champion you would think he's be the top 10 for SOMETHING
wooly have an answer this? Surely with Roo gone his stats should much higher.
I would have thought the opposite; with Roo gone the opposition is able to focus their attention on stopping Milne. Plus with Roo out there it is less predictable where the ball will be kicked, meaning it is more difficult to position himself to crumb effectively.
Hard to stop a pacey crumber. They find their own ball and somehow find space out of nowhere. Reckon Kosi gets the most attention since he would be their number 1 target up there for marking contest. Milne would then sneak in under the pack for the goals.
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 05:27:43 PM
Hard to stop a pacey crumber. They find their own ball and somehow find space out of nowhere. Reckon Kosi gets the most attention since he would be their number 1 target up there for marking contest. Milne would then sneak in under the pack for the goals.
Edited my post about 10 seconds after you posted this. I agree it is hard to stop a pacey crumber but with Roo out this is what happens:
1) Less predictability about where the ball will be kicked making it harder for Milne to position himself crumbing (as mentioned above)
2) With Kosi (and Goddard, Fisher, etc) playing Roo's role, defenders (such as those manned up on Milne) are less likely to leave their direct opponents to help their teammates out (because they don't require it)
Agree with the points wooly. But reckon Milne would be mainly around the big tall targets up forward. He'll get the most opportunity that way. Is not kicked to very often but agree, won't get free as often due to no need to double team.
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 05:35:22 PM
Agree with the points wooly. But reckon Milne would be mainly around the big tall targets up forward. He'll get the most opportunity that way. Is not kicked to very often but agree, won't get free as often due to no need to double team.
So basically his stats shouldn't change much on past years with Roo out.
Still not sold on his stats not completely changing :-\. Reckon it has effected his game.
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 05:56:19 PM
Still not sold on his stats not completely changing :-\. Reckon it has effected his game.
What do you mean? Are you saying his stats should improve with Roo out?
Quote from: wooly on June 19, 2010, 05:59:32 PM
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 05:56:19 PM
Still not sold on his stats not completely changing :-\. Reckon it has effected his game.
What do you mean? Are you saying his stats should improve with Roo out?
Still don't really back your point IMO wooly, Roo rarely drops marks anyways.
Also, does everyone else agree that most of milne's goals are running into the goal square any one could kick except richo?
Quote from: wooly on June 19, 2010, 05:59:32 PM
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 05:56:19 PM
Still not sold on his stats not completely changing :-\. Reckon it has effected his game.
What do you mean? Are you saying his stats should improve with Roo out?
It probably has changed his stats from previous years when alongside Roo. Doubt he hasn't changed a whole lot but reckon there has been a change.
Just saying Roo being out has to effect his game. Players are to adapt to their new roles without their leader leading from the front.
Quote from: Master Q on June 19, 2010, 06:09:22 PM
Quote from: wooly on June 19, 2010, 05:59:32 PM
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 05:56:19 PM
Still not sold on his stats not completely changing :-\. Reckon it has effected his game.
What do you mean? Are you saying his stats should improve with Roo out?
Still don't really back your point IMO wooly, Roo rarely drops marks anyways.
What about my second point, about defenders less likely to leave their direct opponents to help their teammates out against Kosi et al. making Milne's role difficult?
My point was that you expect Milne to improve with Roo out (which you haven't explained why), but I'm saying if anything it would make it tougher for Milne due to the aforementioned points. HP's point was a good one: yes Milne may have more oppotunities with more marks dropped, however he won't get free as often due to no need to double team. Am I saying that his stats have decreased? No, I am saying that his ability to play well and kick goals becomes more difficult with Roo out and why I would expect his stats to stay the same or decrease. (I'm going to have a look at his stats through 12 rounds last year, compared to this year and see if he has improved, struggled or stayed the same)
Roo = Super Super Main Target.
Milne/Kosi = Next Target.
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 07:27:09 PM
Quote from: wooly on June 19, 2010, 05:59:32 PM
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 05:56:19 PM
Still not sold on his stats not completely changing :-\. Reckon it has effected his game.
What do you mean? Are you saying his stats should improve with Roo out?
It probably has changed his stats from previous years when alongside Roo. Doubt he hasn't changed a whole lot but reckon there has been a change.
Just saying Roo being out has to effect his game. Players are to adapt to their new roles without their leader leading from the front.
Not denying that it hasn't affected his game, just that to expect Milne's stats to significantly increase in Roo's absence seems strange (due to the reasons mentioned above).
A look a Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:
Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193
Marks:
09: 44
10: 56
Goals:
09: 21
10: 30
Well in Roo's absence it appears his stats have improved, so my assumption that his stats would stay the same or decrease was wrong.
If anything though, this proves Milne has adapted his game and stepped up in Riewoldts absence; which is a sign of a good player.
Quote from: Master Q on June 19, 2010, 06:15:54 PM
Also, does everyone else agree that most of milne's goals are running into the goal square any one could kick except richo?
What?! Have you watched Milne play?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFj3yVEbNWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz6JsNxKHkg&feature=related
Guess he's adapted well!!! ;D.
Lets see if he can keep that up when Roo comes back in later in the year.
Quote from: Master Q on June 19, 2010, 09:16:18 PM
Roo = Super Super Main Target.
Milne/Kosi = Next Target.
So with Roo out, how would opposing teams plan on defending the Saints' forwards? Milne gets alot more attention, making his stats mentioned above all the more impressive.
Btw, I am still awaiting your answer on how Rioli's career will have surpassed Milne's by next year?
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 19, 2010, 10:17:03 PM
Guess he's adapted well!!! ;D.
Lets see if he can keep that up when Roo comes back in later in the year.
Yep it'll be a challenge for him!
Quote from: wooly on June 19, 2010, 10:22:07 PM
Quote from: Master Q on June 19, 2010, 09:16:18 PM
Roo = Super Super Main Target.
Milne/Kosi = Next Target.
So with Roo out, how would opposing teams plan on defending the Saints' forwards? Milne gets alot more attention, making his stats mentioned above all the more impressive.
Btw, I am still awaiting your answer on how Rioli's career will have surpassed Milne's by next year?
wooly that statement is saying Milne isn't one of the greats.
"Milne Gets A Lot More Attention"
All the greats surely must be able to handle attention, plus, most of the time, It's 1 Defender!
------------------------------------------------
QuoteI am still awaiting your answer on how Rioli's career will have surpassed Milne's by next year?
There isn't a real stat to back this up, however I could say Rioli is already better, but I can't because he hasn't played a lot of games, so we don't know if he could keep this up. But, if he keeps up his Goal kicking, Contestant Marks, Run Downs, Defensive Pressure, Assists, Tackling I'm confident he will be better then Milne's.
Quote from: Master Q on June 20, 2010, 10:14:00 AM
wooly that statement is saying Milne isn't one of the greats.
"Milne Gets A Lot More Attention"
All the greats surely must be able to handle attention, plus, most of the time, It's 1 Defender!
How is that statement saying Milne isn't one of the greats?! It is simply pointing out the obvious that with Roo out he gets more attention, not that he can't handle it. The fact that his stats improved with increased attention means he was able to handle the extra attention!!! So please explain to me again how that comment is saying Milne isn't one of the greats?!
QuoteThere isn't a real stat to back this up, however I could say Rioli is already better, but I can't because he hasn't played a lot of games, so we don't know if he could keep this up. But, if he keeps up his Goal kicking, Contestant Marks, Run Downs, Defensive Pressure, Assists, Tackling I'm confident he will be better then Milne's.
I agree he has a good chance to have a better career than Milne, but he will not have surpassed him by next year like you suggested.
You Said It In A Way That It Sounded Tough :-\
Quote from: Master Q on June 20, 2010, 07:09:35 PM
You Said It In A Way That It Sounded Tough :-\
I didn't intend for it to come out that way, but I could see why you would have interpreted the way you did. I was saying that it does make Milnes role tougher, but If you read the full sentence I say that despite this tougher role his stats still improved: "Milne gets alot more attention, making his stats mentioned above all the more impressive".
Alright. Is there anything more to debate about? I'm still not convinced, but do we have a conclusion?
Quote from: Master Q on June 20, 2010, 07:54:39 PM
Alright. Is there anything more to debate about? I'm still not convinced, but do we have a conclusion?
I'd more than happy to continue debating but it doesn't seem like there is much more to debate.
A summary for those who stumble across this post:
The Question: Name a player under 6ft (<183cm) who essentially played (or plays) their entire career as a small forward that had (or will have) a better career than Milne?Please note that the criteria of the question and that the question
is not: "pick any player in history to play in the forward pocket or as a small forward?".
Arguments for:1) Only Matera and Farmer (and Johnson) compare to Milne in terms of consistency and logevity over their careers. Here are some facts and figures for you:
Davis*: 194 Games, 250 Goals (1.3 goals per game)
Medhurst*: 166 Games, 274 Goals (1.6 goals per game)
Farmer: 249 Games, 483 Goals (1.9 goals per game)
Matera: 179 Games, 389 Goals (2.2 goals per game)
Johnson*: 352 Games, 549 Goals (1.6 goals per game)
Milne*: 200 Games, 408 Goals (2.0 goals per game)
*Still playing
Milne is better than Medhurst and Davis due to goals per game; he will most likely beat out Matera for longevity (unfortunate that Matera's career was cut short by injury); and he will most likely finish his career with more games and goals then Farmer. Johnson is the only player on that list that has (and most likely will have) a better career than Milne.
(No rebuttal)2) Leigh Matthews quotes:
Quote"Averaging two goals a game as a permanent small forward is a very good return"
"His best and worst are often a long way apart, but he plays a difficult position extremely well"
"getting nine inside-50 marks - now that is something right out of the box, which is very much a one-off"
Source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/95798/default.aspx
(No rebuttal)3) Jon Anderson: Ranked Milne 4th all-time behind Johnson, Farmer, and Matera (I have all explained why I think Milne will finish with a better career than Matera and Farmer, and I acknowledge that Johnson is better - discussed later)
Source: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/whos-the-best-small-forward/story-e6frf9jf-1225855799088
(No rebuttal)4) With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:
Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:
Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193
Marks:
09: 44
10: 56
Goals:
09: 21
10: 30
This is despite added attention from opposition teams.
(No rebuttal)Arguments against:1) Never been named in an All Australian Team:Rebutal: All Australian Teams do not pick players based on position (see Dane Swan '09 - named as a forward, Lake '09 - named in the back pocket, and numerous others) so that argument is flawed. Plus other small forwards (Davis, Medhurst, Matera, Farmer, etc) have only been named once in All Australian teams. Milne's career is not over meaning he still has a chance to make an All Australian Team. Besides All Australian Teams reward a player based on performance over one year, not an entire career which is what this disscusion is based around.
2) Not a leader of his club.Rebuttal: I would certainly agree that for the better part of his career Milne has not been seen as a leader of his club. However under Ross Lyon I think he has developed leadership (along with numerous other things like consistency, but I'll stick with leadership). Of course the only way anyone could tell if Milne is/ is not a leader of his club is if we were actually at the club for an extended period of time to observe Milne's leaderhsip. The best thing we have to go off is public comments made by his coach, Ross Lyon:
Quote"It’s a goal within the team parameters of leading, crumbing and pressuring. He’s a real team player and a real leader of the forward line."
"It is a special effort to play 200 games. For a small forward it is really tough, you try and identify the great ones like (Peter) Daicos, Brett Allison, (Darren) Bewick and (Phil) Matera. He certainly sits up around there somewhere."
"We value him internally, he’s got great character "
"He has stood up under real pressure. You can’t beat your critics, you can’t answer your critics, all you can do is persist and have some longevity in your career and keep producing, that is the ultimate revenge."
Source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/96015/default.aspx
Now before you say "he was just saying that to defend Milne" think about the position Lyon is in: His comments will be heard by everyone including Milne's teammates (and the players he mentioned). He therefore is unlikely to state something that is untrue and that his players will disagree with. Comments like the one's above are not made lightly.
3) The Best Small Forwards are to good for their roles as Small ForwardsRebuttal: I agree and I'm not arguing that point, just asking the question: Name a player under 6ft (<183cm) who essentially played (or plays) their
entire career as a small forward that had (or will have) a better career than Milne?
4) Other players (e.g. Rioli) chase and tackle more which is equally as important for a small forward as kicking goals.Rebuttal: Although I acknowledge that those things are important, I believe that they come second to kicking goals when measuring a small forwards ability. I'll break down why I think kicking goals is the most important role of the small forward (and why they are the best measure of their success/failure). The goal of football is to win, and you win by outscoring the opposition, therefore the two most important things in football are: 1) Scoring (goals) 2) stopping the opposition from scoring. Each member (position) in the team plays a role: Backs stop the opposition from scoring (duh!), midfielders work both ways (duh!) and forwards score (duh!). Now you mentioned there are forwards whose roles are to prevent the other team scoring, by stopping the opposition generating run off half back - which is where most goals are set-up from. While I agree this is important, it is no good stopping a team from scoring if you can't score yourself, hence why I say goals are the most important measure of a small forwards success (and why a goal scoring small forward is more important than a defensive tagging small forward).
5) Milne's overall game is lackingRebuttal: I have explained in the post above why I consider goals a priority for small forwards (over other things) and while I agree his game overall is lacking somewhat, I challenge you to find a small forward that meets (or is likely to meet) his production and longevity, whilst still excelling at the other aspects of the game (leadership; 1 per centers - smothers, chasing tackling; etc). Plus it is not as though Milne does not do those things (but I agree not to the same extent as player's like Rioli).
6) Brad Johnson is a better small forward than MilneRebuttal: I agree, although the case could be argued that he's not a true small forward (i.e. crumb and kick sneaky goals), however he meets the criteria I set out so I don't have much choice but to agree.
7) Most of Milne's goals are running into the goal square any one could kick except richoRebuttal:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFj3yVEbNWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz6JsNxKHkg&feature=related
8 ) Looking at his stats, if he is such a champion you would think he'd be the top 10 for something this year.Rebuttal: Yeah but we're not talking about a single year, we are talking about a playing career. Plus name a small forward that is ranked in the top 10 for something?
9) Cyril Rioli better than Milne:
Rebuttal: Too early to tell. If Rioli plays 200+ games, lifts his average goals per game to ~1.5 and maintains his tackling pressure (all very achievable goals) than there is no doubt he will have had a better career than Milne. It is likely to assume that he will meet those goals and therefore it could be concluded that he will most likely have a better career than Milne.
Conclusion:Brad Johnson and Cyril Rioli (depending on how his career pans out) are likely to have better careers than Stephen Milne.
As you can see the majority of the arguments I posted were not refuted (instead new reasons were presented and new questions asked - to which I responded). Many opposing arguments lacked supporting evidence (logical reasoning or facts/figures) and seemed to stem purely from a hatered of Milne. Therefore although the primary purpose of this post was to convince people that Milne is one of the best small forwards of all time, I also hoped to show that, although you may not like a player, there is no reason not to respect what he has achieved. I hate Stephen Milne and I don't think he is great person, but as a footballer I respect him.
Record for longest post? lol
Wooly I think the post Is a little bit lopped sided. (New Debate Point :D )
------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote4) With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:
Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:
Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193
Marks:
09: 44
10: 56
Goals:
09: 21
10: 30
This is despite added attention from opposition teams.
(No rebuttal)
I think this should be used in the against section, but taking away the
"With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:"
and replace it with:
"With Riewoldt Out, Milne has had more oppurtinites, making him look better stat wise, on paper.
and remove the
"This is despite added attention from opposition teams."
---------------------------------
In the against section, you give some of our points, but in a way turn them into the "for" section. Especially No.4.
I have No problem with your statements, but when it is others I think you just make the final answer your opinion.
No.8 Is a very neutral comment, you have to agree to despite no other small forwards are achieving.
--------------------------------
At the moment (Remember at the moment) it stands 2/3 to you in the for section, and I would say about 5/8 in the against section not counting No.9, as there isn't an answer yet.
Quote from: Master Q on June 21, 2010, 04:11:29 PM
Wooly I think the post Is a little bit lopped sided. (New Debate Point :D )
I tried to post the majority of the
good points made by both sides, but I'll edit it more after this post to make it 'fairer'.
Quote
Quote4) With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:
Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:
Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193
Marks:
09: 44
10: 56
Goals:
09: 21
10: 30
This is despite added attention from opposition teams.
(No rebuttal)
I think this should be used in the against section, but taking away the
"With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:"
and replace it with:
"With Riewoldt Out, Milne has had more oppurtinites, making him look better stat wise, on paper.
and remove the
"This is despite added attention from opposition teams."
I probably didn't put enough information in there, although I still disagree that Milne had more opportunities. If he was a tall marking forward (like Kosi) then yes I would agree that he would have more opportunities, but he's not; he's a small crumbing forward so with Roo it doesn't directly affect him (i.e. give him more opportunities). I agree that Kosi (and the other forwards) take less marks than Roo, resulting in more ball hitting the ground for Milne to crumb (i.e. more opportunities) but how many more marks inside 50 would Roo take than Kosi et al.? 2 or 3? So that's 2 or 3 more opportunities for Milne to crumb; hardly seems like
alot more opportunities. Plus as mentioned Milne will have more attention with Kosi in place of Roo, as defenders are less likely to leave their man (Milne) to help their teammate out.
How about I change it to read:
"With Riewoldt out, Milne was presented with more opportunities to improve his stats, however he also faced more attention from opposing team's defender's. Either way the stats prove that Milne has lifted his game in Riewoldt's absence." That sound ok?
Quote
In the against section, you give some of our points, but in a way turn them into the "for" section. Especially No.4.
I have No problem with your statements, but when it is others I think you just make the final answer your opinion.
No.8 Is a very neutral comment, you have to agree to despite no other small forwards are achieving.
Of course the "against" section will sound like the "for" section because my rebuttals are in there. I will look through the posts again but I'm pretty sure most of the rebuttals I have put in where either not addressed by you (or others) or were poorly refuted. But I will go through again and post any counter arguments for my rebuttals that I find.
Quote
At the moment (Remember at the moment) it stands 2/3 to you in the for section, and I would say about 5/8 in the against section not counting No.9, as there isn't an answer yet.
At the moment (I agree) I reckon it stands: 3/4 in the "for" section (with point 1 being the one that doesn't count in my favour). I would argue that it's 7/8 (with point 6 being the one that doesn't count in my favour); which points do you feel are in your favour (or were not properly addressed by me?)
QuotePlus as mentioned Milne will have more attention with Kosi in place of Roo, as defenders are less likely to leave their man (Milne) to help their teammate out.
"Less Likely", sure it's not very Likely, but he doesn't get more attention. Logically, you would think he would, but he doesn't. 1 Defender is all he gets Wooly. That's my view, and you have a different one. I still believe that point should be "against".
QuoteAt the moment (I agree) I reckon it stands: 3/4 in the "for" section (with point 1 being the one that doesn't count in my favour). I would argue that it's 7/8 (with point 6 being the one that doesn't count in my favour); which points do you feel are in your favour (or were not properly addressed by me?)
I said 5/8 not 7/8?
Quotewhich points do you feel are in your favour
2,3,4,6 and 8
Completely against 4 and 8.
Quote from: Master Q on June 21, 2010, 06:28:29 PM
QuotePlus as mentioned Milne will have more attention with Kosi in place of Roo, as defenders are less likely to leave their man (Milne) to help their teammate out.
"Less Likely", sure it's not very Likely, but he doesn't get more attention. Logically, you would think he would, but he doesn't. 1 Defender is all he gets Wooly. That's my view, and you have a different one. I still believe that point should be "against".
lol yes he does get more attention: more attention with Roo out than with Roo in; I never said he would face more than 1 defender. This is what make's playing the role of a small forward difficult: they are essentially tagged with the "tagger" pretty much knowing exactly what they are going to do (crumb and try and kick goals), but unlike midfielder's, small forward's don't have the opportunity to shake the tag by out lasting their tagger. So essentially what I'm saying is that with Roo in Milnes direct opponent (or "tagger") is more likely to leave Milne and go third man up, but with Roo out he is less likely to do this, hence why Milne recieves more attention.
Quote
QuoteAt the moment (I agree) I reckon it stands: 3/4 in the "for" section (with point 1 being the one that doesn't count in my favour). I would argue that it's 7/8 (with point 6 being the one that doesn't count in my favour); which points do you feel are in your favour (or were not properly addressed by me?)
I said 5/8 not 7/8?
Re-read it. It says "I would argue that it's 7/8" (I probably should have said "I would argue that it's 7/8
not 5/8")
QuoteQuotewhich points do you feel are in your favour
2,3,4,6 and 8
Completely against 4 and 8.
2) Yeah you're probably right with this one. As I said the only way to know is to be at the club; I would say that Milne is considered a leader now, but for the better of his career he has not been; and since this debate is about career's this point would go in your favour.
3) Not sure how this works in your favour? I agree with the point, but that debate is not about this. In my opinion it doesn't work in anyone's favour.
4) Don't recall reading a rebuttal for this point :-\; if you don't refute it adequately (i.e. without logic or facts/figures) than how can this point be in your favour; if you do refute it then back it up with some logic and/or facts/figures. Keep in mind that we are talking about a
small forward when you present your argument as I would agree that in most other position's this statement would hold true.
6) We agree so know argument here.
8 ) Like point 3, I'm not sure how this works in your favour. It is a mute point because we are talking about his career not a single season, but either way small forwards will rarely rank in the top 10 for anything in a single season!
So by my admittedly poor maths it's: 3/4 "for" in my favour and (eliminating points 3 and 8 because they don't work either way, they are just facts) it is 4/6 (I think ???) "against" in my favour meaning 7/10 in my favour overrall.
Quotelol yes he does get more attention: more attention with Roo out than with Roo in; I never said he would face more than 1 defender. This is what make's playing the role of a small forward difficult: they are essentially tagged with the "tagger" pretty much knowing exactly what they are going to do (crumb and try and kick goals), but unlike midfielder's, small forward's don't have the opportunity to shake the tag by out lasting their tagger. So essentially what I'm saying is that with Roo in Milnes direct opponent (or "tagger") is more likely to leave Milne and go third man up, but with Roo out he is less likely to do this, hence why Milne recieves more attention.
Disagreed. - My Final Answer. Disagreed.
----------------------
3) - How doesn't it work in our favour, the best small forwards grow out of their position, Milne hasn't?
4) You got to be kidding me?
"back it up with some
logic and/or facts/figures."
I'll go for the logic option, Eddie.
A Small Forward who kicks goals and adds defensive pressure is better then a Small Forward who kicks 1-2 More goals, but doesn't apply as much defensive pressure, or anywhere near as much.
8) Do you recall my original post about it? I think It was something about it doesn't matter if anyother small forward isn't in it.
I think if he was "amazing" he would be in it. But I think we should call that argument a "draw". Agreed?
So, it's 2/
3 in "for". Meaning 1 to "us". Then for against, 4/6 to us, leaving you with 2. Meaning that you are on 4, and we are on 5.
Quote from: Master Q on June 21, 2010, 08:31:28 PM
Quotelol yes he does get more attention: more attention with Roo out than with Roo in; I never said he would face more than 1 defender. This is what make's playing the role of a small forward difficult: they are essentially tagged with the "tagger" pretty much knowing exactly what they are going to do (crumb and try and kick goals), but unlike midfielder's, small forward's don't have the opportunity to shake the tag by out lasting their tagger. So essentially what I'm saying is that with Roo in Milnes direct opponent (or "tagger") is more likely to leave Milne and go third man up, but with Roo out he is less likely to do this, hence why Milne recieves more attention.
Disagreed. - My Final Answer. Disagreed.
Nice rebuttal lol.
Quote
3) - How doesn't it work in our favour, the best small forwards grow out of their position, Milne hasn't?
I'm not sure what I have to say to make you understand: I agree but THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT.
Quote
4) You got to be kidding me?
"back it up with some logic and/or facts/figures."
I'll go for the logic option, Eddie.
A Small Forward who kicks goals and adds defensive pressure is better then a Small Forward who kicks 1-2 More goals, but doesn't apply as much defensive pressure, or anywhere near as much.
lol agreed. Now name a small forward (other than Rioli as we have agreed that he meets this) that does that?
Quote
8) Do you recall my original post about it? I think It was something about it doesn't matter if anyother small forward isn't in it.
I think if he was "amazing" he would be in it. But I think we should call that argument a "draw". Agreed?
I don't recall the original post but why wouldn't it matter if another small forward isn't in it? That's what the discussion is about small forwards; comparing Milne to other small forwards hence the question name someone better (based on the criteria). But I will settle with a "draw".
Quote
So, it's 2/3 in "for". Meaning 1 to "us". Then for against, 4/6 to us, leaving you with 2. Meaning that you are on 4, and we are on 5.
Why 2/3? Which point are you eliminating (and why) and which point are you saying works in your favour? I'm assuming by my estimation:
1) - Your favour
2) - My favour (due to no rebuttal)
3) - My favour (due to no rebuttal)
4) - My favour (due to no rebuttal - you simply said that you "disagree") - I'm assuming this is the point you are leaving out? Just because we disagree doesn't mean it should be left out. I believe I have logically argued my view and you have simply stated that you disagree.
So that's 3 for me, 1 for you.
How did you get 4/6 to you?
1) - My favour
2) - Your favour
3) - Neither (eliminated)
4) - My favour (pending your reply to the question above)
5) - My favour (unless you can answer the question - Rioli is already counted)
6) - Your favour
7) - My favour
8, 9) - Neither (eliminated)
I count 4 for me, 2 to you and 3 elimated.
Total: 7 (or 6 if you're really upset by point 4 in the "for" section) for me, 3 for you.
Now I have to reread everything again ;D.
Good Old Fashion Debate :D.
Quote from: Hellopplz on June 21, 2010, 09:19:05 PM
Now I have to reread everything again ;D.
Good Old Fashion Debate :D.
Sorry HP. We are pretty much "re-debating" points to see whose favour it is in.
Quote3) - How doesn't it work in our favour, the best small forwards grow out of their position, Milne hasn't?
Quote"I'm not sure what I have to say to make you understand: I agree but THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT."
wooly a small forward who fits in your criteria would be horrible to others in this case :-\
Quote
lol agreed. Now name a small forward (other than Rioli as we have agreed that he meets this) that does that?
Would it make a difference. Rioli is better in this part of the debate, Point to us. Can't complain.
QuoteI'm assuming this is the point you are leaving out? Just because we disagree doesn't mean it should be left out. I believe I have logically argued my view and you have simply stated that you disagree
It's not that I'm always disagreeing. I STILL think it should be in the against, that's why I left it out. 2/3.
Quote4) - My favour (pending your reply to the question above)
Already gave my answer, have a not one bit of an idea how it's in your favor.
Quote from: Master Q on June 22, 2010, 04:05:08 PM
Quote3) - How doesn't it work in our favour, the best small forwards grow out of their position, Milne hasn't?
Quote"I'm not sure what I have to say to make you understand: I agree but THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT."
wooly a small forward who fits in your criteria would be horrible to others in this case :-\
(lol I'm curious as to why you waited until now to make that statement?)
lol never said a small forward that fitted the criteria wouldn't be horrible, although I would find it hard for you to explain how averaging 2 goals a game is horrible. I'll break this down for you:
I placed 2 criteria in the question: under 6ft and entire career forward.
(Note that this criteria was also used by Jon Anderson in his article)Reasons for the criteria:Under 6ft: There obviously needed to be a height resrtiction and I would deem players <6ft as small. I don't think you have an issue with this though.
Entire career forward: This is obviously the criteria you take issue with. Now, as I have said the question is not pick the greatest team of all time. If it was than Milne wouldn't even come into consideration.
But that was not the question. The question was about small forwards, key word:
small and
forwards, hence the criteria. I would classify a forward as someone who plays in the forward 50 (fair definition?). Therefore when talking about small
forwards, someone like Leigh Matthews or Kevin Bartlett cannot be counted as they did not play the majority of their careers as forwards.
I asked for your answer to the question based on the criteria I gave you. Now I understand that it is an odd question,
but that is the question I asked you to answer. And again, why wait until now to make that statement?
QuoteQuotelol agreed. Now name a small forward (other than Rioli as we have agreed that he meets this) that does that?
Would it make a difference. Rioli is better in this part of the debate, Point to us. Can't complain.
lol yes. I had already acknowledged that Rioli is likely to be better along with Brad Johnson, making Milne third overall. Third overall would classify him as one of the best small forwards I would have thought? If he was 5th or 6th then probably not, hence why I asked you to name others!!
Quote
Quote4) - My favour (pending your reply to the question above)
Already gave my answer, have a not one bit of an idea how it's in your favor.
See above.
QuoteQuoteI'm assuming this is the point you are leaving out? Just because we disagree doesn't mean it should be left out. I believe I have logically argued my view and you have simply stated that you disagree
It's not that I'm always disagreeing. I STILL think it should be in the against, that's why I left it out. 2/3.
lol you haven't put a logical or factual argument forward! If you think it should be in the against than explain why!!! I can't "give" you the point or call it a "draw" if you simply say "Disagreed. - My Final Answer. Disagreed."
Here's a look back at the arguments relating to this topic. Please point out where you present a logical or factual argument:
Your comment:QuoteRoo = Super Super Main Target.
Milne/Kosi = Next Target.
My response: "So with Roo out, how would opposing teams plan on defending the Saints forwards? Milne gets alot more attention, making his stats mentioned above all the more impressive"
Your response: Quotewooly that statement is saying Milne isn't one of the greats.
"Milne Gets A Lot More Attention"
All the greats surely must be able to handle attention, plus, most of the time, It's 1 Defender!
My response: "How is that statement saying Milne isn't one of the greats?! It is simply pointing out the obvious that with Roo out he gets more attention, not that he can't handle it. The fact that his stats improved with increased attention means he was able to handle the extra attention!!! So please explain to me again how that comment is saying Milne isn't one of the greats?!"
No reponse from you to that comment.Later. Comment from you:QuoteQuote
4) With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:
Milne’s stats 2009 up to Rn12 compared to 2010 Rn12:
Disposals:
09: 127
10: 193
Marks:
09: 44
10: 56
Goals:
09: 21
10: 30
This is despite added attention from opposition teams.
(No rebuttal)
I think this should be used in the against section, but taking away the
"With Riewoldt out, Milne stepped up and improved his game:"
and replace it with:
"With Riewoldt Out, Milne has had more oppurtinites, making him look better stat wise, on paper.
and remove the
"This is despite added attention from opposition teams."
My response: "I probably didn't put enough information in there, although I still disagree that Milne had more opportunities. If he was a tall marking forward (like Kosi) then yes I would agree that he would have more opportunities, but he's not; he's a small crumbing forward so with Roo it doesn't directly affect him (i.e. give him more opportunities). I agree that Kosi (and the other forwards) take less marks than Roo, resulting in more ball hitting the ground for Milne to crumb (i.e. more opportunities) but how many more marks inside 50 would Roo take than Kosi et al.? 2 or 3? So that's 2 or 3 more opportunities for Milne to crumb; hardly seems like alot more opportunities. Plus as mentioned Milne will have more attention with Kosi in place of Roo, as defenders are less likely to leave their man (Milne) to help their teammate out.
How about I change it to read:
"With Riewoldt out, Milne was presented with more opportunities to improve his stats, however he also faced more attention from opposing team's defender's. Either way the stats prove that Milne has lifted his game in Riewoldt's absence." That sound ok? "
Your response:Quote"Less Likely", sure it's not very Likely, but he doesn't get more attention. Logically, you would think he would, but he doesn't. 1 Defender is all he gets Wooly. That's my view, and you have a different one. I still believe that point should be "against".
My response: "lol yes he does get more attention: more attention with Roo out than with Roo in; I never said he would face more than 1 defender. This is what make's playing the role of a small forward difficult: they are essentially tagged with the "tagger" pretty much knowing exactly what they are going to do (crumb and try and kick goals), but unlike midfielder's, small forward's don't have the opportunity to shake the tag by out lasting their tagger. So essentially what I'm saying is that with Roo in Milnes direct opponent (or "tagger") is more likely to leave Milne and go third man up, but with Roo out he is less likely to do this, hence why Milne recieves more attention."
Your response: QuoteDisagreed. - My Final Answer. Disagreed.
I don't see much of an argument in there from you, so again:
I can't "give" you the point or call it a "draw" until you provide some sort of logical/factual argument.
I've could keep going but...
I've checked your criteria, many of the great small forwards don't fit in. But of course this is the discussion, Milne is defiantly one of the best Small forwards who fit in the criteria, but defiantly not one of the greats outside of the criteria.
In conclusion, he is one of the Best Small Forwards (In the criteria) but maybe the tittle should be changed to "Best Small Forward (Who Fits In The Criteria)
Quote from: Master Q on June 22, 2010, 09:54:41 PM
I've could keep going but...
I've checked your criteria, many of the great small forwards don't fit in. But of course this is the discussion, Milne is defiantly one of the best Small forwards who fit in the criteria, but defiantly not one of the greats outside of the criteria.
In conclusion, he is one of the Best Small Forwards (In the criteria) but maybe the tittle should be changed to "Best Small Forward (Who Fits In The Criteria)
I would love you to keep going, as I'm not sure what you can say, but I agree that this is becoming a bit trivial.
Thankyou for input and finally understanding the purpose of this discussion :).
Just out of curiosity who would you name as your top 5 small forwards of all time (no criteria :P - and therefore I of course don't expect Milne to be listed ;))
St. Kilda played Collingwood and Hawthorn recently - two big games against teams expected to do well in the finals - and Milne didn't do a thing in either of those games.
Mark LeCras has now kicked more goals than Milne this year, and if a small-forward makes the All-Aus team this year, I'm betting on LeCras now.
Quote from: ossie85 on July 23, 2010, 10:07:28 PM
St. Kilda played Collingwood and Hawthorn recently - two big games against teams expected to do well in the finals - and Milne didn't do a thing in either of those games.
Mark LeCras has now kicked more goals than Milne this year, and if a small-forward makes the All-Aus team this year, I'm betting on LeCras now.
I thought this topic was dead and buried. So rather than kick a dead horse, I'll only be leaving this comment.
I agree that he did nothing in the Collingwood game, however in the Hawthorn game, he did kick 2 goals in the last term with the game on the line.
As for LeCras (who also goes missing in big games), I would tend to agree that he is the front runner for All Australian, however as I mentioned earlier this discussion is about careers not single seasons. Based on that I would put LeCras in the Rioli category - likely to be better but too early to tell.
Just poking you with a stick :)
I actually posted this before the last quarter had finished! So I ate some humble pie :)
Lol Ossie ;D. Poking a sleeping bear ;) ;) :P.
*Wooly Walks In Room* *Swipes Match*
grrrrrrrr....
:P
Quote from: wooly on June 13, 2010, 08:03:33 PM
During the St Kilda/ Fremantle game I stated that Milne would go down as one of the best small forwards in history, to which I recieved numerous comments along the lines of "wooly what are you smoking?!"
So to those who think I've lost it, please name any true small forward* that had (or will have) a better career than Milne. The only player that comes close is Phillip Matera (West Coast, 179 games, 389 goals), however Milne beats him out due to his longevity.
*I should clarify that I would classify a true small forward as someone under 6 ft (<183cm) and who essentially played their entire career in the forwardline (this would rule out goalkicking midfielders such as Kevin Bartlett, Leigh Matthews, etc).
screw criteria look up small forward in the dictionary and u will see the blazing mullet of
PETER DAICOS